In this episode of Bankruptcy Law Success, I interview David Stidham, CEO of BK Billing, which buys IOUs from bankruptcy lawyers so that they can offer “$0 down” Chapter 7s. By offering financing to cash-strapped prospects, David’s bankruptcy lawyer clients are growing by leaps and bounds–and running over more conservative competitors.

Some of the highlights in this interview include:

• Why you should care what BK Billing does, even though it sounds boring.
• The exact discount that BK Billing pays when it buys IOUs from bankruptcy lawyers who are willing to do a Chapter 7 for clients in exchange for an IOU.
• Why you should surf the “$0 down” Chapter 7 wave (with or without BK Billing), before that wave wipes out all the lollygaggers.
• Exactly how some BK Billing clients have grown their filings by over five times…
• How to use post-petition service contracts to avoid slashing your fees for cash-strapped prospects, possibly doubling your average fee…
• A legal strategy that lets you charge for a Chapter 7 even after a bankruptcy discharges pre-petition unsecured debts.
• And a whole lot more, including some tips on how to offer “$0 down” Chapter 7s by yourself.

You can listen to the episode by clicking the “play” button in the audio player above, or read a full transcript below.

You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast.

Bob: Hi, this is Bob Hiler of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast, where we introduce you to successful bankruptcy lawyers, as well as powerful ideas that can transform your bankruptcy practice. Today, I’m speaking with David Stidham, CEO and founder at BK Billing. David is based in Sandy, Utah. David, welcome to the podcast.

David: Thank you. So glad to be here.

Bob: So I’m really excited to be talking to you today because I think what you’re doing could really shake things up for bankruptcy lawyers in a good way. But before we get into the benefits of your approach, I thought maybe you could just start by giving us a 30-second explanation of what it is that BK Billing does.

David: Sure. BK Billing essentially buys the accounts receivable from the attorneys. So when the attorney files a bankruptcy, depending on how they file it, there could be a receivable that they are owed. And so what we’ll do is we’ll come in and buy that receivable at a discount so that the attorney has operating capital and can run their business appropriately.

Bob: So I looked it up. I saw you created your website in February 2016. So is that how long you’ve kind of been running the company?

David: Yeah. We’ve been doing BK Billing since February 2016.

Bob: Maybe you could tell me the story behind how you came up with BK Billing…

David: Sure. Basically, I was working with a close friend of mine, Sean Mawhinney, who is a bankruptcy lawyer in Salt Lake City. And everyone had the same dilemma in hiring your bankruptcy lawyer, which was that they just did not have funds to hire the lawyer, that they were needing to get the bankruptcy filed but they didn’t have access to capital so that they could pay their attorney’s fees. And so what we did is we decided to try to create a mechanism where the attorney could get paid upfront and still be able to accept new clients and create access for these clients and the clients could make payments over time. And so we went through a few different versions of that but where we landed was on purchasing the AR directly from the attorney once they have created the AR with the client and engaging in the client that way.

Bob: So on a very simple understanding of your business model, all you’re doing is you’re another factor that factors accounts receivable or AR. But I think that really kind of gives short shrift to the revolution that’s going on here because it seems to me that what BK Billing is doing is you’re enabling a marketing revolution where you’re able to do the zero dollar down and really change the offer that bankruptcy lawyers are making to their customers and that can lead to an explosion in revenue. Am I overselling it?

David: Yeah. No, you’re not. We try to be a little demure just because we understand what the market conditions are. I mean, it’s just one of those very powerful things where the bankruptcy clients simply don’t have access to capital. And historically, they’ve had to pay in full their attorney’s fees before a bankruptcy could be filed. And so now with bifurcation and with some other things, there’s methods where a bankruptcy attorney can file the case for the client and enter into an arrangement for post-petition payments. And that is really the key. The post petition payments and the willingness to accept those petition payments from clients is really what’s driving this market change.

Bob: And, David, I absolutely want to get into that and build the legal foundation for this approach and talk about post-petition service contracts, but before I do that I want to get the bankruptcy lawyers who listen to my podcast… I want to get them excited about the potential increase in filings that they can achieve. Is there anything that you can tell us that’s public, maybe without specifying who is getting these results, but maybe can you tell us a good story here?

David: Yeah, for sure. You know, without naming any names, I’ll just tell you the reason why it goes off is because you have two different things that are happening. One, you’re able to convert more clients because now clients are able to file their bankruptcy without having to come up with a lot of cash or any cash and can get their bankruptcy filed now. The other reason why it works is because if you use BK Billing, if you use our services, you get access to operating capital right now that you can turn back into your business. And so what a lot of our clients are doing is they are advertising in a way that they’ve never done before, and they’re marketing in a way that they’ve never done before. So they’re going from filing three or four cases a month. In a lot of cases, they’re filing well over 15, 20 cases a month within just a couple of months because they’ve eliminated the barriers for their clients to engage them and to hire them. And then we provide the operating capital that they need to run their business and to invest in marketing and do some other things. And so that combination can become very deadly, and you can see huge growth in literally two to three quarters. I mean, you could triple, quadruple your growth output.

Bob: Actually, the reason I heard about you guys is that client of mine, Hector Vega, found an adversary proceeding for a bankruptcy lawyer that happens to use your services. I’m not going to say the name of the lawyer but the reason that I reached out to you was that the adversary proceeding was actually the best advertisement I’ve ever seen for a service like yours. And let me just read what it says. It says, “According to court records from,” and it gives a three month range, “this firm filed 23 Chapter 7s over three months.” So that’s 7.7 filings per month. And then later it says, “Since implementing the zero-down model on this date, this firm has done 90 Chapter 7 cases in this particular district over two months.” So that’s 45 filings per month. The first period was January through March and the second period was May through June. So we’re going from a 7.7 filings in the first quarter to 45 filings in the second quarter.

David: Yeah.

Bob: I mean, those are spectacular results.

David: Yeah, that really is unique but it’s really a matter of that firm doubled-down and really understood what their clients needed as far as access to their services and decided to essentially parlay the money that they were getting from us upfront into a marketing campaign that really exploded for them. And they did a good job on it. You know, this particular law firm isn’t the only one. It’s been fun to watch a lot of law firms take this approach and really create more access for their clients and then go gangbusters with it. And it has been a lot of fun to watch them grow in that way and handle more clients than really they’ve ever been able to do before.

Bob: Yeah, absolutely. I’m a marketing consultant and I work with bankruptcy lawyers and one of the things that you learn in marketing is that there’s three elements to a successful campaign. One of them is “what you offer,” and the other two are: “how you offer it,” and the third one is “who you offer it to.” But that first one of “what you offer” is so vital. And for a lot of bankruptcy lawyers or a lot of lawyers, in general, their offer is a free consultation for someone to come in and spend 30 minutes to an hour of the lawyer’s time. It’s a much more compelling offer to have a zero dollar down offer. And so on the marketing side, it takes–typically on Google AdWords, where I do a lot of advertising–it typically takes $30 to $40 to get a lead. But with a zero-down model, I could imagine that the cost per lead goes down dramatically. Have you ever heard anything about that?

David: Yeah, it can. I mean, there’s a lot of variables at play there. And we’re not really in depth with the marketing. We have a lot of, I’d call them “affiliate companies,” which are companies that we work with that are aware of our business model and work with a lot of our clients. But as far as cost per lead goes, yeah, your cost per lead could go down and your conversion can go up, which can dramatically drive down your cost per acquisition. So your cost per acquisition goes down significantly and from the business standpoint, that’s huge. Really, what we found is it maximizes what you’re trying to accomplish as a firm. You know, going to 45 filings a month might not be the right game plan for your law firm, but if you are trying to go from filing 5 to 7 cases a month to maximizing your firm’s output and maybe going to 15 to 25 cases a month, that can be real. That can max out your output and you can double or triple your income in a very short amount of time.

Bob: Yeah. That’s super exciting. So maybe we could go into the legal foundations of bifurcating a case into pre-petition and post-petition service contracts. But first, I don’t think you’re a lawyer. Is that right?

David: No. Nope, I’m not a lawyer. So that’s why I said I can give you my 10,000-foot view but I can’t really get into the details.

Bob: Exactly. I’m not a lawyer either, but can you give us the 30,000-foot view of bifurcating a case into pre-petition versus post-petition service contracts and how that enables your business model?

David: Sure, sure. And this is to an area that’s sort of gray and every jurisdiction across the country is kind of dealing with how they’re deciding to deal with it. But basically, in a bankruptcy, you can separate your fee agreement into a pre-petition agreement and a post-petition agreement, where if you want to do certain things pre-petition, you can charge for your pre-petition services. If you decide to do those pro bono or free, you can do that. The post-petition thing comes in a little bit tricky and really, the cleanest way and the most well-accepted way is after you file the petition to then have a second contract signed by the debtor so that contract is actually signed post-petition. And then the debtor is engaging with you as the attorney to hire you for your post-petition services and work that’s only done post-petition. And the big key to that is the fees have to be reasonable and they have to be based in work done. You can’t just inflate some contract. You’ve got to say, “You know what? We’re doing 10 hours of work at $300 an hour. So it’s a $3,000 contract.” So you have to be really mindful, especially in the bankruptcy context, of reasonableness and making sure that your fees align with that. But essentially, that’s how it’s done. You charge the client pre-petition for whatever you’re going to do pre-petition. If you do a zero-down, you charge nothing. You file the case and then after the case is filed, you have the client sign a new contract. And then at which point we acknowledge that as a receivable and we can factor that receivable for you and get you paid cash upfront.

Bob: Great. And for attorneys out there who haven’t come across the word “factor” before, could you break that down into plain English?

David: Sure. The easiest way to understand how a factoring works is it’s a cash flow solver. And the way that we do that–typically, there’s all different kinds of ways to factor–but the way that BK Billing does it is we simply purchase the accounts receivable at a discount. So if you have $1,000 contract, we’ll purchase it for $750, something like that. And that’s how it works. So if you want to do all your own servicing and just wait out the life of the contract, you’re more than welcome to do that. What most of our clients found is that there’s more value in getting your money upfront and then putting that money back to work than there is in waiting on the life of the contract. And then what we do as a factor is typically, when we collect from the client, we take that burden off of the law firm. So we do all the collections and we handle the payments and all of that type of thing. So the law firm doesn’t have to focus on it.

Bob: And it’s also something that a bankruptcy law firm, in particular, doesn’t really want to have in its DNA. It doesn’t really want to focus on collections, right?

David: I would think most of them don’t. Some of them do. Some law firms really do have a pretty robust internal system for processing payments and then trying to get after that.

Bob: Yeah.

David: Most law firms don’t. Most law firms don’t. And trying to do it that way and trying to carry the staff to manage a bunch of payments is a little tricky. It can be challenging. So it’s a big relief to our clients to essentially originate a contract and then sell us the AR, which allows them to focus on just working with their client and moving forward as opposed to trying to manage the ongoing receivables that are associated with doing this kind of a zero-down filing platform.

Bob: Where I was going with my comment was that for a solo or a small bankruptcy practice that really focuses on bankruptcy, the whole point of bankruptcy is to improve your credit. So you could easily imagine a situation where some portion of customers are going to enter into financial distress again. And so a bankruptcy law firm is not going to be super eager to come down on them and kind of reverse the benefit of giving them a clean credit report.

David: No, of course not. Yeah. And we don’t do that either. We really try to give them the best opportunity to pay in full. And honestly, when they don’t, there’s a lot of other methods. Most people, the vast majority of people, if they’re not paying in full according to schedule, work out some sort of payment schedule. The vast majority of clients have a desire to pay their attorney’s fees. You know, sometimes people get into a little bit of a cash flow situation but overall, the clients are incredibly grateful for the opportunity to come to an attorney and instead of having there be a financial roadblock, having the attorney say, “You know what? Let’s get you the services that you need. Let’s create a solution for you now and you can pay me out of your post-petition earnings for the post-petition services that I rendered.” You can’t collect from the debtor on pre-petition services. That’s a violation. So you’ve got to be really careful with that.

Bob: Well, let’s take a step back because one of the things I don’t think that we emphasized strongly enough is that really, what you’re doing is you’re focused on Chapter 7s. A Chapter 13 would naturally have a post-petition service contract or rather, you could enable a payment plan through the traditional Chapter 13 payment.

David: Exactly.

Bob: So this is really focused on Chapter 7s.

David: Exactly. Exactly.

Bob: One of the cool things that I saw is that you guys report positive payments to help customers rebuild credit. Does that actually help people build their credit back up after a 7?

David: Yeah. Yeah, it reports… I mean, like any credit reporting, you typically want to have three to five open lines. So after you file your bankruptcy, you know it’s not going to be the only thing that you need to do to try to reestablish your credit, right? But it’s nice to have your payments for your bankruptcy being reported, your payments to your attorney being reported to the bureaus positively for you to help you get a leg up.

Bob: Absolutely. And then for the negative credit reporting, I saw that you wait at least 90 days to report any negative credit activity. Is that something that you just kind of work out with the lawyers just to kind of get them more comfortable with negative… Well, and also to represent your flexibility that you’re willing to work with people who are into financial distress?

David: Yeah, this is pretty unique to us. I’m not sure of other companies that have this policy but for the space that we’re in, the bankruptcy space, it works really well. And that’s that we’re trying to help these people out, right? Like the whole purpose of reporting their credit is to rebuild their credit.

Bob: Absolutely.

David: And so we don’t report negatively at all. The only time that we report negatively is if we have to close out an account because they defaulted and they haven’t paid. And we have to close out that account, then that’s what happens. But outside of that, we don’t report negatively. We believe in the positive reinforcement. And that’s been great. Like I said, most of our clients have really been responsible with their payments.

Bob: Awesome. In terms of default rates, can you give us a sense of the range of default rates that you’re seeing out there?

David: You wanna know, it’s all over the board. We have a 15 percent holdback and we have that in place because of default rates. But every attorney is a little bit unique. Some have a really small single digit, 4 to 5 percent seems to be about the minimum. And some, honestly, we’ve had to discontinue working with because their defaults have been in the low 20s.

Bob: Oh wow.

David: So it just really depends there. It’s really all over the board. But I would say, on average, you can really stay within that 15 percent holdback that we put out there. Most of our clients are well within that range.

Bob: One of the things that I saw… I did a lot of research on zero-down Chapter 13 plans and I found a bankruptcy attorney in North Carolina. His name is John Orcutt and he had a :zero dollar money down, common sense qualifications.” And he had these conditions you had to meet in order to participate in the plan. So you had to have steady, dependable income sufficient to pay your normal monthly expenses and your Chapter 13 payment, no more than $2,000 in funds on hand, and it goes on. I’m not gonna read the whole thing to you.

David: Sure.

Bob: With one of your partners, I saw that it said, “To qualify…”–and this is one of BK Billings’ partners–it said, “To qualify, you must earn a monthly income of $1,500 or have a cosigner willing to sign the payment contract.” Is that guidance that you give your lawyer partners?

David: That’s a good question. We do. We have some form of underwritings because like we said, if we don’t have some way of underwriting the type of accounts that we will purchase, then they can get a little bit ridiculous. The defaults can get a little bit unruly and so we just have some basic standards that we hold to. But yeah, gross income is one of them, the ability to be able to pay your bills, like all these types of things that we look at. And I guess the big key is we’re not really offering credit per se. The attorney is offering credit in the form of goods rendered. It’s not an interest rate. There’s no loan. It’s nothing like that. It’s simply a discount off of the services rendered. And so it’s an in-house form of credit that is pretty benign when you look at how it works out over the life of the contract.

Bob: One of the things that I saw is that it seems like the term of your agreement is 12 months. So there is 12 monthly payments. Is that right or is that just one example?

David: That’s just one example. We maxed it out at 12 months. We typically see most of our contracts in the 8-month to 10-month range. 12 months seems a little bit long.

Bob: OK.

David: But we have a range there where you can be… Most clients that we’ve seen prefer to pay it off early, anyways. So most clients are paying off their loans in that 7-month to 9-month period.

Bob: Oh really? They pay it off early?

David: A lot do. Yeah, a lot of them do.

Bob: Well, they don’t have that big credit card that they’re trying to pay down or medical bill or whatever so…

David: Exactly. Exactly. So a lot of them just start making their payments and then they’re gone. But what we’ve found is that a lot of people will–when they get extra money–will pay down their debt, their contract.

Bob: That’s awesome. Are there any other kind of useful guidance or credit criteria to apply to prospects?

David: No, we’re pretty open. We base most of it on a job and on your income and on your ability to make a payment post-petition. And we’ve gone through that in the bankruptcy process so a lot of what we do is very similar to what the attorneys are doing already in the Chapter 7 bankruptcy: verifying income, verifying bank statements, doing that kind of stuff.

Bob: One of the cool things that you do is that you finance the pre-petition fees which can include the court filing and, I presume, the credit counseling fees. How important is that in terms of making that “zero dollar down”? How important is that in terms of making that marketing offer be more powerful? How important is that?

David: It’s pretty powerful. I mean, what we do, we kind of, again, we leave it up to the attorney and up to the attorney contract. And that’s because in each jurisdiction, it’s a little different. And how they handle attorney’s fees is a little different. We’re just… Again, it’s all about access. And it’s all about creating the opportunity to get the services now that you need now to fix your cash flow. And so most of our attorneys will work out a contract where they can add in the court fees as part of their contract. And that can be a little tricky depending on where you are and they might want to treat it a certain way. And so you have to be really careful with what your local rules are. But most of our clients end up just paying the fees themselves and then including it in a contract that we then factor.

Bob: Well, I suppose, to be specific, they don’t include that pre-petition fee into the post-petition service contract. They would kind of do a free pre-petition service contract and then they might look to do something else to justify a higher post-petition service contract. Am I thinking about it right?

David: Pretty much. What most people will do, especially on the zero-down, is they’ll do a petition to file the fee in installments. And so that’s sort of what they’ll do. They’ll put their client on an installment plan and then they’ll either… Like I said, a lot of our attorneys will just front the cost. Most of the attorneys just pay on a credit card. By the time their credit card bill comes due, they receive the contract that’s factored and they just pay up their credit card bill. So that’s what most of our attorneys are doing. They’re just paying for the filing fees themselves and then because it’s an admin fee, they don’t usually have a hard time including them in their post-petition contract.

Bob: Got it. That’s a good point. OK. That’s another thing that I want to bring up, which is that when you work with BK Billing, from what I understand, you provide them with kind of a sample set of pre-petition and post-petition service contracts and what to include so that they have a place to start. Is that right?

David: Yeah, that’s right. We give them a jumping off point just based on stuff that we’ve seen around the country and on the case law that we’ve done or on the case law searches that we’ve done. We’ve really worked hard on the bifurcation front to figure it out as much as possible. And it’s emerging right now and that the conversation is ongoing about bifurcation and how to do this. There’s some really exciting things happening across the country like with guarantees and with some things you can do that way and we’re kind of developing some of these ideas. But bifurcation is going to run its course. We’re going to see what the judges and the courts decide in bifurcation because right now, everybody is using it to create access via a zero money down type of a solution. And that’s good. And so hopefully, the courts continue to move in that direction. But if they don’t, there’s other options too. There’s other options that allow you to still move forward and work with your client to create post-petition payments and do these kinds of things.

Bob: Is that what you’re talking about with guarantees? I didn’t actually follow what you were saying.

David: Yeah. And I’m sort of being a little coy but we’re developing some… There’s a lot of attorneys across the nation that are working on models that don’t include bifurcation to try to figure out how to get some post-petition services where you don’t have to bifurcate the case. And we’re excited to work with them and to see what they’re doing and this idea of creating access to clients is new and is fun and is emerging in the market right now. But it’s not necessarily tied to any one thing. You know, bifurcation is a technique that’s being used but it’s not the only technique out there. And so what a lot of things are going on is bifurcation itself is getting both good and bad publicity about it right now, and it’s getting good and bad things said about it. And some judges are falling on one side and some others are falling on the other. So it’s definitely a charged topic and it’s interesting to see it. But for the attorneys that are running with it and they’re going with it, I mean from a marketing standpoint, it’s insanity.

Bob: Yeah, it’s awesome.

David: It’s a revolution, like you said. I mean, it’s sweet. It’s fun to be a part of and fun to watch, honestly.

Bob: When my client sent me the adversary proceeding and I read it, my fingers like… I couldn’t reach out to you over LinkedIn fast enough. I was so excited.

David: Yeah.

Bob: Because I saw… I mean, I’m a marketing guy. I see… I listen to these phone calls where prospects out there who are in desperate need of a bankruptcy are talking to attorneys. I listen to these recorded calls and they all have terrible cash flow problems that are going to be solved when they have the bankruptcy. But it creates this real “how do you get there from here” problem. And that’s what this approach addresses directly.

David: Yeah.

Bob: Well, that’s awesome. Do you have any success metrics that you can share in terms of how many attorneys you’re working with? I don’t know if you want to… If you don’t want to say anything, that’s OK.

David: No. I’ll just be honest with you. We’re a little low key right now just because we’re trying not to be a bull in the china shop. It’s a disruptive thing that’s happening in the market and we don’t necessarily want to be the big target, the big disruptive factor. We want to be part of the conversation but we feel like it’s really something that’s happening on the attorney level. So you know, we’re in over 40 states. We’ve grown… I mean, the growth that we’ve experienced is just exponential, which we appreciate all the attorneys that have come to us. Our waitlist to even join, we have a queue that’s probably four to five months deep.

Bob: Oh wow.

David: Yeah. And that’s why, honestly, Bob, we are slowing it down on purpose as far as what we’re doing. You know what I mean? Because there’s just so much to watch and so many t’s that need to be crossed and i’s that need to be dotted. And instead of just running down the market and blowing down the doors, we’re really trying to work with, frankly, early adopters that understand what’s happening and understand that this is not something that’s not going to move. This is a market shift. You can either get in front of it and ride with it or you can get run over by it. And some people understand that and some people don’t. And some people are trying very hard to shut it down, frankly. And we’ll see how that day plays out. But I think what’s really really fun is the fact that so many attorneys are embracing the idea of being able to offer this solution to their clients and it’s great that we can support them with the capital. But a lot of them are doing it without our support. A lot of people are just saying, “Look, we’ll take you and we’ll do your bankruptcy and we’ll do monthly payments.” And so the whole market is benefiting because now, clients are able to really get the help that they’ve always needed but had to try to come up with all the attorneys fees upfront. And frankly, attorneys can make more money.

Bob: Absolutely.

David: Because instead of having a credit deal and say, “Well, you can only come up a $750 or you can only come up with $1,000. I’ll take it.” You know, they can say, “No, I’m gonna charge it $2,000 or $2,200 or whatever the case might be. And you can pay me $200 a month for a year or $200 a month for 10 months or whatever.” So everybody is making more money. I think the market is returning to a healthier place and I think it’s really the right solution, long-term solution, for the market. So we’ll see how the factoring plays into it and we’ll see how bifurcations shakes down around the nation. But even if bifurcation does what it does and shuts down in certain areas, there will always be methods that you can use that will allow you to file a case and file a bankruptcy and still accept post-petition payments from their clients.

Bob: Awesome. Now I have clients… If I’m trying to sell to my clients to tell to try to get on your waiting list, are there particular areas like the Fourth Circuit or whatever, Ninth Circuit, whatever, where bifurcation is more accepted and that it’s less risky from their point of view?

David: You know what, that’s a great question. And case law in the Ninth is really great. But there is some activity in the Ninth that is a little bit troubling. So we’ll see how that shakes down. The good news is I don’t think it’s bifurcation-specific. I think it just has to do with making sure that everything is done properly in regulating it. So I think the Ninth is going to be pretty good. I think the Ninth Circuit is going to be wide open. The Sixth is really good. The Seventh is really good. Everything else and then Florida–and Florida has got a great case law also–and Georgia is pretty good too. So you’ve got some areas around the country that are open to it and that have dealt with it before. But in some of these other areas where it hasn’t really been done before it’s–at least not on the mass scale–it’s getting some opposition.

Bob: You know, I saw a lot of advertisements. I regularly look at AdWords advertisements for bankruptcy lawyers. I actually saw a ton of advertisements last summer in Utah. Was that because of your presence or is that something that’s probably…

David: Yeah. That’s just everybody getting on board and doing it. You know, we saw it in Utah. It had already happened. There’s been a switch. So the whole market switched to it and the ones that aren’t doing it aren’t really able to compete.

Bob: Yeah, they’re just going to get run over. What about the Fifth Circuit? Because I have some clients in Texas. Is there anything…

David: The Fifth Circuit is great but there’s not a lot of case law. So it’s wide open. So the guys that are the early adopters in Texas and in other areas are going to have to be a little proactive if they wanted to be safe.

Bob: I’d be excited to get a customer having a zero dollar down offer because I mean, in terms of marketing that offer, it just makes my job so much easier.

David: Sure.

Bob: That would be super exciting. Last thought, did you see that article–this was maybe six months ago–it was about Memphis and how all these bankruptcy lawyers are taking these African-American clients and putting them into the expensive Chapter 13 plans just so that they can get them some financing. Did you see that article?

David: I didn’t see that, no.

Bob: I’m going to send it to you, and I’ll link it in the transcript for people who are listening to the podcast. It was a real kind of travesty of social justice where you have all these poor African-American clients that are getting shunted into Chapter 13 plans that maybe they can’t afford. They make six months of payment and then something happens and then it’s as if they just wasted $5,000 or whatever the amount that they’ve put into the payment plan. So this is a real alternative to that that would not have a five-year payment plan and it would have much, in general, lower attorney fees. So I’ll definitely send that over to you.

David: Yeah, I appreciate it.

Bob: Well, this is super exciting. As you can tell, I’m biased. I’m a fan. But I think that this is going to be a big wave in bankruptcy and that’s what Bankruptcy Law Success… That’s what my little podcast is about, trying to understand what these best practices are and try to help my listeners stay ahead of the curve. So, David, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

David: And thank you, Bob. It was great.

Bob: All right, thank you. Bye bye.